The Polyamorous Misanthrope

Dear Goddess of Java,

My husband and I have a wonderful marriage of nine years. I am bi-sexual and he is very supportive of this. We have always talked about our desire to have a long-term polyamorous relationship, but until recently we couldn’t seem to find the right woman. Now we believe that we have. This woman is intelligent, fun to be with, and incredibly beautiful. She has been hurt in past relationships and she has children whom she adores but don’t live with her at the moment (a situation which she is trying to change). We have children also and my husband and I think we could be very good for her. The only problem is that she’s not sure she wants a relationship with a couple. She has admitted that she finds us attractive and that she enjoys spending time with us, but she is currently involved with a single man and she thinks it may be getting serious. We really, really like this woman (I’d go as far as to admit that we’re both madly in love with her). More than anything we want her to be happy and if being with this other guy is ultimately the best thing for her and makes her happy then we will support her in that decision, but honestly we believe that as a couple we can make her happier. How do we convince her to give us a chance? I am not a very outgoing or aggressive type person so I am having trouble figuring out how to seduce this woman and draw her into our relationship without scaring her away.

Do you have any advice? Please.

Sincerely,

Shy and In Love

You know, I think you know the answer to this one.

Yes, indeed, ask for what you want. It doesn’t have to be extravagant. In fact, it’s probably better if it’s not. All you have to say is, “Look, we’re nuts about you. Would you please consider giving us a chance?”

Then she gets to decide.

You’ve stated that you want her to make her own choices and that’s very good. Seducing and all that isn’t really going to be what has the best outcome here. If a simple straightforward request would scare her away, then this woman isn’t for you anyway. Polyamory, and indeed most relationships, work best when you can interact clearly and directly. If you have to use anything but your own natural behavior to “convince” her to be with you, I can pretty much promise a train wreck eventually.

If you’re saying by not being very outgoing or aggressive that you have trouble clearly asking for what you want, may I make a small suggestion?

Work on that.

Relationships without clear communication and with people who don’t get that asking for what you want is the way to go can become difficult and painful for all involved. As I’ve said before, asking is not demanding. Asking means that sometimes you get “yes” and sometimes you get “no”.

In the case of this woman that you’re head over heels for, asking is definitely the way to go. If she says “yes”, you’ve laid some much better groundwork for a healthy relationship because you stepped up to the plate, asked clearly and calmly for what you’d like and established a precedent for clear and direct communication. If she says no, you still win, because you’ve had the courage to ask for what you want, and have the extra shiny karma of being respectful of people’s boundaries.

Good Luck!

Goddess of Java

I am coming out of 8 years of self imposed singleness, introspection and evolution. yeah yeah, had the heart broken like us all, but I am alive and happy now and ready to love again. I met an exceptional woman in May, she is poly, very open and honest, we like each other and I am looking forward to becoming her friendintimate. Not only am i new to poly, but new to dating. the last time I dated, the use of email was minimal and texting non existant, now it is de riguer.

Do you feel modern rapid communication technology has changed parameters of communication, or just the expectations of it?

Now while I am NOT sitting here freaking out, I am trying to figure out if waiting 9 days for a response to an email I sent to find out when we can see each other again is a passive agressive version of “I’m just not that into you” ( the old me ) versus “She is a very very very busy workaholic extrovert with a partner, girlfriend, career and has just met you, no biggie” ( the new me). Not trying to have you determine her motives, but since the first thing she told me was her desire to communicate in a timely manner, I am stumped as to whther my definition of timely manner is skewed due to access to email and texting……..

That’s a very interesting question.

Confession: I owe an email to someone I’m friends with.  In checking the date, it’s been nearly nine days with me, too! I like the person a great deal (he’ll be getting an email before you see this, by the way), and in my case it really has been that I forgot to make a note to myself to answer the email in the throes of a psycho busy time.  I really am so busy I have to flag emails and set a date and time to respond to them or they don’t get answered.  This is especially true when it deals with the scheduling of time, as I really do have to lay out a schedule to get to stuff and arrange for times to do things¹.

That said, yes, sometimes not answering can be a little passive aggressive.  Sometimes, it’s just someone being flaky.  I guess the real question is how much flakiness are you willing to put up with before you’re not into that person, ya know?

I will suggest one way to find out how this chick feels.

Ask her.  Asking a question is a very good way to find out about things, as we all learned on Sesame Street.   If you’re wondering about something, sure, it can feel real vulnerable to ask a direct question about it.  I get that, and I sympathize.  I’ve neglected to ask direct questions of people when I’m wondering about things from that same vulnerability.  The price I pay is not knowing the answer.  I suppose when not knowing is more painful than a possible answer one doesn’t want, it becomes easier to ask the question, huh?  I’m in favor of asking for lots of reasons.  It establishes a great precinct of open communication, it lets your potential know that you’re willing to find things out directly rather than fiddling around and projecting, and it also gives a good opportunity for someone whose email has been dropped by accident.

Good luck in your new relationships.  But remember, if this doesn’t work out, there really are six billion people on this planet.  If a cannibal can find someone to volunteer to be killed and eaten, surely our problems of finding the appropriate relationships to suit us are considerably more minimal².

---

¹Public thanks to my sweet and generous FWB for not getting irritated with schedule flakiness on my part, by the way.
²Shamelessly stolen from another dear and treasured friend.

I’ve been googling, browsing communities on LiveJournal and in general just mucking about the internet looking for different columns, articles and information on polyamory. As someone who comes to polyamory from the BDSM community, this was a topic that my partner and I had been discussing from the get-go as one of those general “How do you feel about this?” topics. However..

I really haven’t been able to find any information, or rather helpful information, dealing with a personal quirk of my newly found polyamory. See, my partner is happy to remain monogamous and is fully supportive of me but I’m having troubles adjusting from the “You HAVE to be monogamous!” mindset to the “You know, it’s okay to have romantic feelings for more than one person.” mindset. Everything I’ve been finding seems to focus on the partner who remains monogamous and their being upset. I haven’t found a whole lot for the polyamory newbies who are confused and upset by their feelings! In some regards, I feel like I connect with the upset monogamous partner more than I do with the polyamorous partner yet I am the one with the inclination towards polyamory.

The best thing I can do is to take slow and let relationships develop naturally and on their own but I was hoping there were others out there like me who were/are having troubles adjusting to being polyamorous. There’s no doubt in my mind that this is how I should be but I’m having to work through years of socialization and it’d be nice to know that I’m not alone in this.

Have you ever met people who’ve had similar problems?

Your column is awesome!

*BLUSH* Gawrsh…  Thanks.

Off the top of my head, what it seems like to me is that you feel guilty that you’re having feelings for more than one person.

Guilt is a funny thing, and yes, I’ve known people to feel guilty about something because they felt like they “should”, even when directly told that the people effected are just fine with whatever is going on!  Certainly it says more about your worldview than it does about theirs.

The best thing I can offer is that you take your monogamous partner exactly at his word.  He says he’s fine.  Your letter implies that you have no reason to believe that your partner is not being truthful, so chances are good that he’s fine.   Maybe you’re thinking he shouldn’t be fine with this?

If so, that’s a bit on the disrespectful side when you think about it!   He’s the expert on his feelings, so the respectful thing to do would be to take him at his word.

On the other hand, you don’t have to remake your mind to be poly.  Sure, sure, there may be changes in worldview, and that’s cool, but you’re still you, ya know?

Your question does sound like some self-examination would do you a lot of good — examining the nature of your feelings, your difficulties and why they might be there.

Some useful questions to ask yourself:

• What about polyamory attracts me?
• How do I envision multiple relationships and what changes do I think they may make in my life?
• Why does the idea of those changes seem like a good choice to make?
• What about polyamory is making me feel uncomfortable?
• Does getting over the discomfort seem like a good thing for me to do?
• Am I listening to my doubts?  What are they telling me?
• If I am having trouble adjusting, why is it important to me to be poly?

I’m all for poly (obviously, or I wouldn’t be doing this column!), but I don’t necessarily think that poly is The Ultimate Relationship Style.  Works for me, and that’s cool, but hey, if it doesn’t work for you then that’s okay.  You won’t get kicked out of the Cool Kids Club if you choose not to, any more than being poly is a ticket into the club, you know?

Hope this helps!

I have heard and done some research on my own but have not found a definitive answer to the following question.

Is HIV transmission possible through cunnilingus?

There isn’t a definitive answer. Sorry!

Please understand that I am not a doctor, so I am answering to the best of my knowledge based on what I know about disease vectors (a little better than the average layman, but not much!)

The best we can come up with is that there are a couple of documented cases that they think are likely to have occurred during cunnilingus, but in terms of statistical risk of life¹ , it’s less risky than you getting into your car and driving to the grocery store. That theoretical risk is a bit higher if it is certain that blood is involved — ferinstance, cunnilingus during menstruation, especially if the person doing it has just brushed his teeth, so has teeny tiny open wounds in the mouth.

But it’s quite true that oral sex is not exactly risk free!

That said, I recommend getting regular testing for STDs in general. AIDS is hardly the only STD out there, and there are some others that will kill you, some that won’t kill you and still completely suck! Make sure you take appropriate precautions. I really recommend Assessing STD Risk Tolerance to learn a bit more about STD risk assessment. She’s remarkably sensible.

The only thing special about STDs are how fragile the little bugs are and how intimate you have to be to get ‘em. We don’t flip out when you get strep throat, and if untreated, that can certainly develop complications that can kill you. I rather dislike the stigma and shame attached because it prevents us from treating them sensibly.

¹For HIV only! There are other STDs for which oral sex is very much a transmission activity!

If you find this site useful, consider buying the Goddess of Java a libation of that greatest of elixirs. The Goddess of Java disdains latte heresy and only imbibes the Java purity, so it's a mere $1.50.

Dear Polyamorous Misanthrope,

Well, long story short, the ex-wife is poly. I used to consider myself preferentially monogamoose, but recent events have me questioning that a bit. I’m admittedly prone to territorial issues where other boys are concerned, but have zero jealousy issues with other girls, even ones I ain’t involved with, and some of my other relationship tendencies are a bit easier for my partners to take if there’s more than one partner.

Aaaanyway, the ex-wife is more or less willing to give up other penis, but doesn’t think it’s fair unless I give up other anyone, so to speak. I don’t have any real interest in dating other girls anyway (the theory is intriguing but the time ain’t there), but although I see her point in asking a restriction of me if I ask a restriction of her, I don’t really see where her proposed solution is any more inherently fair. And relationship inequity and, to a lesser degree, feelings of abandonment are likely to rear their ugly haids in the form of resentment over the long term.

So, although I won’t pretend to slavishly follow any kind of script, I am looking for other ways of looking at the situation as it stands, as well as other possible solutions (although I don’t see that many other possible solutions). Suggestions, outlook, commentary very much appreciated.

I think that if it works for you, certainly it can work out.  Clearly this isn’t working so well for you guys or I don’t think the word ex would be involved here.

I genuinely believe from the bottom of my heart that the real answer is to learn to deal with insecurity before starting on the poly path.  I’ve noticed that “fair” is often a difficult and obstructive word when it comes to relationships.  So much so that in general I prefer to abandon “fair” for “does this work?”  Minute accounting systems in relationships are often indicative of a relationship in which trust has become anemic.   No matter what else you choose, I believe that both of you working real hard to put some deposits in the Emotional Bank Account would be a fantastic thing for your marriage.

As I’ve observed Life, Love and Relationships, one of the biggest things I’ve noticed is that complex rules are often very rickety artificial structures that seem to be intended mask issues without actually working on them.  Sometimes it seems to me that the more complex the rule structure, the more concerned someone is with avoiding personal change as much as possible.  So, I’d avoid the rules and look to see where change might actually bring about what you want better.

Now, my immediate impulse is to say, “Dewd, you wanna have an open relationship have an open relationship. Don’t refer to another potential man as another penis, even in the abstract.  He’s a human, too!  Each of you would probably do best to work on your own personal issues and comfort zones.”

It’s valid as far as it goes, and yeah, it’s what I think. It’s also a little less than helpful.

To go further with it, I’d say that sitting down with a cup of coffee and thinking about what feels threatening to you and why makes sense.  What activates your need to protect yourself and why?   Is it something you wanna keep in your life or not?  Sometimes the real issue isn’t the obvious surface issue and I’d really advise thinking a long time on that to see if you’re dealing with the actual issue.   You’ll be having an argument you think is about the dishes when it’s really about feeling valued. Stuff like that happens all the time in relationships, so cultivating the habit of questioning yourself to make sure you know what issue you’re really dealing with is a helpful thing to do.

I do encourage both of you to give up an exact accounting of fair in favor of finding out the real solutions that will make each other happy would be something you’d both enjoy a lot in the long run.

Good luck!

Mama Java

If you find this site useful, consider buying the Goddess of Java a libation of that greatest of elixirs. The Goddess of Java disdains latte heresy and only imbibes the Java purity, so it's a mere $1.50.

Greetings Misanthrope,

I have a difficult problem and I am not sure how to go about dealing with it. I live in a quad arrangement with my husband and another couple but I do not have a sexual relationship with the other husband. We are basically roommates. I do have a sexual relationship with the other wife. I thought that a little background was needed but the problem is I hate the other husbands behavior with “our” wife. He does things that I find demeaning and disrespectful, such as groping her relentlessly if he decides he’s horny, even if I am in the room and the wife and I are having a discussion. This is after she has asked him to repeatedly stop. His other offensive behaviors are of the same type. If she doesn’t stop and pay attention to him when he wants it he pouts, gropes her or finds some other way of trying to get her attention.

This behavior is driving me crazy. My question is what do I do, if a person treated my daughter or husband this way I would not hesitate to tell them to “get the hell off of them”. In this situation I am not sure how to handle it. The Wife does not stick up for herself in any way she is so passive with men it hurts me. I would love any insight you have to offer.

I suppose the quick and easy thing to say is that you’re not responsible for protecting someone else’s boundaries. *grin* Feel free to click on “boundaries” in this site and point your wife in the direction of those posts. Good boundaries are really important to being happy in your life in general — poly or not.

It is natural to feel protective of the ones we love, certainly. The thing is, your wife is not a child under your protection, but a grown woman. If someone were treating your daughter this way, it would be one thing. It is your responsibility to protect your daughter from unwanted touching and to teach her how to do that for herself. Your husband is also an adult, and therefore responsible for his own boundaries.

This is not to say you cannot give backup to the people you love. My question would be, has your wife asked for it, or are you defending her without being asked? Learn from my bitter mistakes and don’t do that. Being protective without being asked might seem noble to you. It’s actually not very respectful because what you’re really saying is that the person isn’t a full, self-responsible adult. Grownups ask for the help they need.

This letter also brings up another point. How are boundaries respected in general in your household? Have the four of you discussed this and agreed upon what you consider acceptable behavior? Have you discussed what will happen if there is unacceptable behavior?

Assertive communication is a big help here. I strongly encourage you to check out the Boundaries article on this site, as well as checking out the links on assertive communication at the end of this article. Do remember that you cannot control the behavior of another person. You can ask for what you want. You can choose not to be around someone whose behavior is unacceptable to you, but you cannot make someone change behavior.

Assertive Communication Links:

• Assertive Communication at Mentalhelp.net – The thrust of this is more for anger management, but the ideas are still very sound.
• Assertive Communication Builds Relationships — I like this one, because it explains how to avoid weaseling and using “I statements” to beat someone over the head, which is passive-aggressive at its best/worst.
• Important issues with assertiveness and listening use in the real world — This site is a bit workplace oriented, but poly families, being larger, often play out similarly.

If you find this site useful, consider buying the Goddess of Java a libation of that greatest of elixirs. The Goddess of Java disdains latte heresy and only imbibes the Java purity, so it's a mere $1.50.