The Polyamorous Misanthrope » Ask the Misanthrope

Bouncing the Reality Check

Goddess of Java — Tue, 24 Jan 2012 14:00:33 +0000

I’m in a primary poly relationship and a few secondary ones. On the whole things are great and the world is wonderful.

One of my newer partners has a primary and poly family of his own. They are a great bunch of people. We’ve been taking things slow and recently both cleared our STI screening tests, so technically we are ready to have sex when we want it.

But I’m holding back. Something doesn’t feel quite right to me. He’s not very affectionate towards me, so I asked him for more of that and the last time I saw him he was indeed more affectionate when we were alone. But when we are round my partners or his, he’s totally cold. He said he worries about annoying someone, but I hope this will get easier with time.

Then there is the issue of contact. I tend to message my partners a lot, just organising meetups and so on, because I love them. Until I notice that I am the only one initiating with him, and when I do hear from him first it is just to arrange playtime and tell me about what kinky sex he’d love to try, which makes my skin crawl.

So I’m holding strong and not messaging him, to see how long it takes him, and what he does say when he messages me. If he only ever messages me for sex, he’s not going to get it -ever. I want more than just sex with him and he damn well knows it. I need affection and vanilla things with him and we’ve agreed to do this.

I guess I have two questions here after all. One is how much contact do you like or think is reasonable to have with secondary partners? And would you have sex with someone if they only seemed to message you about sex or play?

It does look like you’ve already decided how to handle your potential, and that’s good. I mean, it’s good you’ve made a decision – not passing judgment on it. It does sound like your basic desires in a relationship don’t mesh, and you know it. Hey, it happens. Fortunately, there are 7 billion people in the world, so there’s no need for the two of your to make each other miserable when you can each have relationships that actually make you happy.

How often is reasonable to contact partners? I can’t give you a sensible answer to that. It really, really depends on the relationship. I have a partner I’ve been involved with for almost five years and we don’t contact each other every day. We’re fine with that. I’ve also had partners that I chatted with online most of the day off and on. What is reasonable is what works between partners. Honest to goodness, if I had a partner declare it was reasonable to get a text at least three times a week because some opinionated bigmouth with a blog said it was, not only would I be dubious, I’d be disinclined to agree just out of contrariness. If the person asked for at least three texts a week because they liked that level of contact and it made them happy, I’d probably make a note to make sure I tried to do that. If they asked for three or four a day, I’d have to explain it conflicted with other things I needed to do and go from there to see what accommodation we could reach. But that’s me, my schedule and what I’m up to. You are almost certainly different. As long as you and your partner reach an accommodation that make you both happy, certainly a stranger’s tastes don’t enter into it.

As far as having sex with someone who only contacted me about sex, if all I wanted with him was sex, that’d be fine. If it wasn’t, well, no. Since interesting conversation tends to be a bit of a kink of mine, no, just sex isn’t generally what I’m looking for. I think that’s a taste thing rather than anything else –certainly no moral judgment. I think a sex for sex’ sake relationship has its merits if that’s what makes the people involved happy.

I wish I could be more concrete with you, as I get the impression what you really want is a reality check about whether or not you want too much time from a partner. It’s not the wanting, though, that’s reasonable or unreasonable. It’s a lot more to do with how you ask for what you want, and how you behave when you get your answer – be it yes or no. That’s where reasonable (or at least mature) comes in or not. You’re allowed to want things. You’re allowed to ask for them. You’re allowed to ask for things that are a big deal and you’re allowed to ask for things that are not. Certainly you’re allowed to have things that are a relationship requirement for you. It’s just that, if you don’t get them, it’s pretty important to be able to walk away with a “no harm, no foul” attitude, or even consider how important that want really is to you. Sometimes it does boil down to whether or not you want X quality or is that you want to be close to Y person.

You Might Like:

One Poly Opera

Goddess of Java — Tue, 17 Jan 2012 14:00:07 +0000

Hello and thank you for taking the time to read this. It may be quite lengthy, so brace yourself! I am definitely in need of some goddess intervention tho…

(Yes, the letter is long. I’ve edited for length here)

I have been in a polyamorous relationship for a year and a half now, and, let me tell you, it has been the most wonderfully terrible situation in my life. When I was younger (I’m 22 now), I never dated much and if I had an interest it was nothing serious. However halfway through college I met the man of my dreams and my soul mate; a 26 year old married man. I know it sounds cheesy, but the first time we locked eyes, I knew I felt something for him, more strongly than I was accustomed to. He has told me many times he had felt the exact same way and that he never felt that way about anyone before.

“Soul mate”… “I’ve never felt this way before…”

Won’t say I’ve never used these phrases before. I have. And the fallout from them was such that I’m inherently suspicious of their use. They’re generally more indicative of hormonal carbonation (which is quite the entertaining emotional roller coaster ride) than they are of anything of substance upon which one can build a serious relationship. When you start thinking down these lines, be afraid. Be very afraid.

A lot of what you have here is inexperience. You’re confusing hormonal carbonation with love. This is understandable. Our whole society is set up that way, from Cinderella to The Princess Bride. Do yourself a favor and don’t take relationship advice from Hollywood or fairy tales.

Sure, hormonal carbonation is fun. It’s meant to be as a species survival thing. This is probably your body tricking you into getting pregnant by a good gene match, not a good relationship match. (Jesus, I hope that isn’t planting an idea seed, cause if you think it’s bad now…)

There was a bit of a miscommunication at the beginning though. He mentioned him being married very soon after I started to get to know him but also said that his wife was gay, they married very young for convenience reasons, and that they wanted to be with a woman. I, being very open minded and having a gay best friend myself who I always thought I would marry, thought this couldn’t have been more perfect for me. I thought it was the same situation. After that, he didn’t mention much of his wife, we continued our blossoming relationship, and I thought things were going great.

Then about a month into our relationship, I finally met his wife. She seemed like a nice person and all, but it hit me that she wasn’t just gay, but bi and actually had a romantic relationship with Boyfriend. Since I was at their place for the first time and felt a little awkward about everything, we didn’t really discuss the relationship at all. We just hung out as friends and I had a nice time. But I realized that they were actually a couple and wanted to both be with me, even though I thought Boyfriend wanted to be with just me due to how it was only me and him everyday since the start for over a month. He even properly asked me to be his girlfriend and, of course, I accepted. If past me would’ve known what future me knows now, I would’ve screamed “RUN FOR YOUR LIFE! RUN WHILE YOU STILL CAN!”.

Miscommunication? Miscommunication? No! No! No! The dewd lied to you about his relationship, he implied that he was uninvolved enough to devote lots of time to you, mostly, ANNDDD to put a cherry on top of the stupidity sundae, you absolutely ignored what was right in front of you because he had you good and hooked.

So here I am, stuck with a very tough decision. I already am totally smitten with the guy and he to me. And at the beginning I tried. I tried so hard to want what him and his wife wanted. I tried to fit that perfect puzzle piece in their lives. But truth be told, it was a growing process for me. He was my first serious relationship ever. I was like a deer in the headlights trying to accommodate everyone and not hurt anyone’s feelings. I tried to want her, but it was hard because I very rarely saw her. Now about 3 months into the relationship I finally said I couldn’t be with both of them. I really, truly, deep within my heart had no intention of leading them on with hopes of us all being together. I was just finding myself through the relationship unfortunately. I found that I just wasn’t romantically interested in his wife at all and I just loved him.

He lied to you to fuck you.

I hope like hell that doesn’t feel okay. Love him or not, is this a good relationship choice? You can love people that might be bad relationship choices. You can even choose not to have a relationship with someone for whom you have strong feelings because it would be a bad choice and not invalidate those feelings.

This crushed them and started the tears, heartache, drama and downward spiral. They still, to this day, think I’m the bad guy. We have gotten into so many viciously savage arguments. We still do. And I’m getting so tired of this. I love him and I know he loves me too. Very much. But I have severe jealousy of his wife now. So much so that I’m losing my charm, my sanity and the person that Boyfriend fell in love with in the first place. She just has the life I want with him. It doesn’t mean that I don’t care about her, because I do. A lot. I’d help her in a flash if she were in trouble. I just….kind of hate her too… Inside me I have so many conflicting emotions that I am starting to feel physically ill and am seriously considering mental help. I just….don’t know what to do. I really do feel that he is my soul mate. We are best friends, art/ceramics partners (our school career choice together), and he admitted that I was his soul mate and wants me to be in his life forever… but he didn’t want to hurt or leave his wife for me. And I don’t want him to leave her either. But that’s what it would take to make me happy with him. He also has a one penis policy so me being with anyone else is out of the question.

Boy, he’s got you tied up good, doesn’t he? He’s convinced you that you’re “supposed” to care about someone that in reality you see as competition (which isn’t really conducive to a serious poly relationship), you’ve decided to be a “good girl” and force yourself to be friends with her. And for???

Addiction. This is not mostly about love. Not really. It’s addiction. For whatever reason, this fellow turns your crank. Maybe he smells right, maybe the sex is about the most amazing sex you’ve ever had, maybe his body just feels good to you. But I can tell you beyond a shadow of a doubt that love, if it exists at all, is only minorly associated with what you’ve got going on here.

It’s not that I don’t feel for you. I have as been as dumb as you (and at a far older age!) and I really do understand the pain you’re going through. From the perspective of having been through that, my real advice is to dump his sorry, lying manipulative ass. GET AWAY. Spend a year celibate to get your head on straight, if you need to. Yes, find a good counselor. A poly-friendly one would be ideal, but even one that isn’t would probably do you more good than not at this stage.

A good rule of thumb, I’ve found, is to look at your relationship and ask if the “relationship issues” would drive the plot of a chick flick. If they would, you have a bad relationship. Conflict and pain are what make movies interesting. A good relationship might be shown in a movie, but I assure you that a good relationship won’t drive the plot of that movie. So if the conflict and pain is what makes things interesting, as is certainly the case here, you need to dump his ass.

I haven’t spent a lot of time on his relationship with his wife, and the fact that apparently they’re trying to guilt you into a threesome. What the fuck? Do you really want a relationship with people so emotionally immature that they think this is okay?

There is no good ending to this one. Run away. You’re being treated as a thing, not a person.

*wince* And you might want to take a good look at yourself. I don’t know for sure, but it seems to me that you’re kind of commodifying the boyfriend, too. I don’t see a saint in this little poly opera. You’re contributing by sticking around.

I’m not saying that leaving isn’t going to hurt. It will. I’m not trying to blow that off. But this sort of pain does end. You do heal. Yes, it’s hard. Yes, it hurts.

But you will come out the other side one day, shake your head and laugh, “What in hell was I thinking? Why did I do that to myself, and what I can learn?”

Maybe poly will be for you in the future, maybe not. But right now, I can tell you beyond a shadow of a doubt that this relationship is no good. It’s not going to get better. You deserve to be treated as a person, not a commodity to fill the unicorn hole.

Run, run, run.

You Might Like:

Where’s the Love?

Goddess of Java — Wed, 04 Jan 2012 18:53:03 +0000

I have a fundamental flaw that is of course so embedded in my personality, that I cannot recognize it. Maybe you can help.

I fall in love with plain, vanilla women for about a year, sometimes less sometimes much longer. At the end, I find myself searching for someone who is as un-vanilla as I can find. I break up with my vanilla love and then join my kinky friend. Only to long for the love I gave up.

Everyone ends up getting hurt. Yet the pattern repeats. Like the story of falling into the pothole. I would like to not even walk down that street.

I think maybe I am poly and am unable to reach some kind of self-code of action. Is there some kind of test or description that fits poly. And yes, this is my shit and I do own it. But I sure as hell would like to get rid of it.

The first question I’d ask is, “Where’s the love?” No seriously. I’m not talking about sexual hots here. Not to run it down (’cause it’s awesome), but I tend to be a bit unromantic when it comes to actual love. ”I’m gonna dump you for the kinky when vanilla gets too much” doesn’t taste much like love to me. Yes, yes, it’s not your intention to do such a thing, but you’ve a pattern of doing it, and that does speak of an underlying issue. Think about what love is to you. If it’s primarily driven by a perception of emotion, you may be calling something love that isn’t love. It’s an easy mistake to make. I think most of us do, especially with the One True Love message we get from books, movies, television, songs, you name it.

Now, to give you the benefit of the doubt, it is possible that your sexual desires and what you do best with in a living day to day situation has some differences. That’s not too terribly unusual, and plenty of poly people live with it. However, if you don’t tend to enjoy vanilla sex, for pity’s sake, don’t date vanilla chicks! There’s not much that’ll trump good partner selection when it comes to any relationship style — poly or otherwise.

Now, maybe you like kinky and vanilla. Plenty do. And poly is a good way to deal with that if you have a partner who is all one way or the other. While I’m not a behavioral expert, I expect it’s not as binary as all that.

Another thing you might want to think about: Just because you have the hots for someone doesn’t mean you have to have a relationship with them. That ties into the good partner selection thing. For example, if you are into someone, but don’t want an LDR, you don’t date someone on the opposite coast no matter how into them you are or how wonderful they are. Since this four paragraph letter is really all I have to go on, I’m making a leap here in trying any sort of diagnosis, but it does seem that it’s possible that you think if you have the hots for someone who is interested in you, that you have to have a relationship with that person.

You don’t.

I know everything from The Princess Bride on down will tell you that’s the way True Love works. It’s also a big ole steamin’ pile of nonsense.

As to the question about whether or not you are poly? I have no idea, but I do have one question to ask you: How do you feel about your partner also being free to have other loves (even ones the same sex as you, if you’re mostly hetero). If you’re not okay with that? I don’t think poly would work out well for you in the long run. And before I get a flood of people defending the One Penis (or Vagina) Policy in relationships, I stick to finding inequitable relationships distasteful. It’s one thing when the dice fall that way. It can happen. It’s entirely another when there’s a rule about it, and 99.99% of the time, it’s about someone not wanting to confront their own feelings of jealousy or insecurity.

You Might Like:

A Can of Worms: Polyamory Definitions

Goddess of Java — Sun, 11 Dec 2011 16:20:32 +0000

Got an interesting one in my mailbox this morning:

How is Polyamory different from being in an open relationship?

I got into an argument with someone about it, I think it’s an unrealistic idea for most people.

I personally believe that “polyamory” for many people is an intellectual validation/ politically correct term for “promiscuity” or “being in an open relationship,” that feels less dirty for people due to it at least superficially being about “love.”

I use the terms polyamory and open relationship nearly interchangeably myself. Many poly writers don’t. And yes, if a differentiation is made, the definition revolves around love and commitment. But, ya know, I’m not going to run down love and commitment. Those are good things.

I even agree that some people use a lot of contortions to use terms to differentiate themselves in the mainstream’s eyes from those other dirty, dirty sluts.

However, there are a couple of premises upon which we disagree. I think having lots of sex partners is okay. I think consensual sex among adults is totally fine. I’m pretty indifferent to being perceived as a slut. Since the worst treatment and gossip about my sexuality I ever got was when I was in high school and still a virgin, it always seemed that letting other people’s perceptions of my sexuality drive my behavior and choices was mostly self-defeating. For some people, my high school experience might have made them skittish and ashamed. It just burned out my give-a-damn.

I also disagree that polyamory is unrealistic for most people. I don’t think it is. I think tastes vary. I think there are people who will be happy poly, and I think there are people who are not. I think that our culture is set up to support the One True Love idea so strongly, however, that you do have to unpack a great deal of cultural baggage before polyamory is an intelligent or realistic choice.

Sometimes I think that there is this fear that polyamory is going to turn the world into a 21st Century Fuckfest.* I think this mostly comes from this idea that if there weren’t powerful restraints against it, all people would do is spend their time pursuing sex.

Even if this wouldn’t be the worst thing I could think of, I think it’s inaccurate and the perception comes from seeing the behavior of some outliers. Are there people whose main hobby seems to be sex and its pursuit? Of course. I know several. Is it bad? I don’t think so. Can it be done unethically? Yep. You can say the same for making lots of money or going into politics. I’m not willing to separate the ethics of sex from the ethics of any other pursuit.

Even if sex as one’s main hobby were a bad thing, it would still be an anomaly. Sex is awesome, but so is building gadgets, writing books, going to the beach with your kids, learning a new language, making a movie, climbing a mountain, hanging out with friends or any of a number of other things people do. Being poly doesn’t really change having a full human life. In fact, I’d say that there is a fair proportion of poly people who do have their multiple relationships, but spend an enormous amount of time on family, community and other project.

You know, just like normal people do.

___________________________

* Presuming this would somehow be a bad thing. I don’t see it that way.

You Might Like:

Bailing on Dates

Goddess of Java — Fri, 02 Dec 2011 14:43:15 +0000

I met my secondary partner earlier this year and we took our time getting to know each other before we played, and agreed to start a play-partnership.

Then a few months ago she met a new primary, and I only found this out when she added a new relationship status up online.

As a result I haven’t seen her since August. She’s in the throes of NRE and has bailed (last minute) on every one of our 5 arranged dates since meeting him.

Well, one of my own rules for myself that a string of bailing means I stop initiating. (If I ever did initiate. I tend to be bad about that and am trying to work on it so my partners get the message that they are valued.)

I’ve communicated that I want to see her, it’s been too long since our last meeting and that I miss her, which she reciprocates in words but not actions.

Okay, while I’m all into believing one’s partner, when one’s words and actions do not agree, believe the actions. What are her actions saying?

Part of the annoyance is that she lies about her reasons for bailing, citing illness or lack of funds to see me yet managing to see him and go clubbing etc.

I feel like I am the only one doing the chasing, messaging her, arranging meets. I feel like I have communicated the desire to see her.

From what you’re saying, it looks like you are the one to take the initiative and that it’s not being reciprocated. I’d say this is a good time to stop initiating and be done with it.

As far as the lying thing? You could ask her to explain discrepancies between her words and actions if you want to. I do say “ask” rather than “accuse” on purpose. It is just possible you don’t have all the information. Then again, she could be a lying flake, but if you value the relationship, I’d go with the assumption you don’t have all the info, first!

I don’t want to end the relationship, I really like her and I am happy for things to be very laid back and to only see her every few months if needs be. But I don’t want to be bailed on, and treated badly as I see it. I realise she loves her new partner, but I also think she needs to make time for our relationship too. Ultimately if she takes months to make some time for me I can only interpret that as a lack of feeling for me, and end the relationship.

I don’t know that I automatically would assign seeing someone irregularly to the “lack of feeling” category, but bailing several times in a row does indicate that maybe she’s just not that into you. I mean, it sucks and it hurts, but it doesn’t look good to me.

You don’t have to make it all official and “end the relationship.” You can just stop initiating. Now, if what you’re saying is that there are things that are deal-breakers for you, you do need to express that. Bailing five times in a row in general would be for me —barring professions or activities that duty requires one to be “on call” frequently. You know, like being an on-call medical/rescue professional, on-call tech support, or new parent.

Words of wisdom and advice on how to deal with this would be great. I do worry that because things are new with us and we haven’t done much poly negotiating, she won’t be prepared to discuss boundaries and stuff. She added this primary without even telling me until after the fact, which I also felt was a bit bad of her. Im at a loss really – I do like her but I feel hurt by her. I don’t have a deep emotional attachment to her at this point (luckily perhaps) but the way she is behaving is making me unhappy.

I actually do have a relationship with someone who I see quite infrequently. He added a primary and did tell me about it after the fact. Did it bother me? No, actually, I thought it was cool that he fell in love. Why? We only see each other every few months and we’ve never explicitly negotiated anything about each others’ other relationships. Of course he’s free to add a primary if he wants to! And… well, he’d established a pattern not only of keeping me in the loop, but being quite willing to listen if I asked for something and to give a clear yes or no. What I didn’t have was the baggage of getting bailed on or felt like I was being lied to. That does make an enormous amount of difference. I knew damn well he was (and is) interested in me about as much as usual.

Do I challenge her on her behaviour and explain that bailing on me all the time makes me feel unwanted? Do I leave her to it and see if she comes to me? How long do I leave it before I finish the relationship?

Certainly it is okay to say, “I don’t like being bailed on.” Is that going to change her behavior? Dunno. You’re going to have to try that and see. I wince a bit at the use of the word challenge, though. Approaching a partner in an adversarial frame of mind has its drawbacks. (Enemies and Allies discusses this. It was written by a wise and wonderful friend of mine.)

I will say that since you don’t have a deep emotional attachment to this person, that in terms of a relaxed life, you might just want to let this go.

One of the things that I’m seeing a bit more in poly discussions is the importance of good partner selection. I don’t mean that any worthy human being would make a good partner. In fact, they wouldn’t and that’s exactly the point. You’re a unique human being with unique needs and desires. What’s good partner selection for you? It sounds to me like this person isn’t a good match for you. You might benefit from thinking about what qualities make a good partner for you and decide if this person has them.

I hope things work out for you!

You Might Like:

Package Deals in Polyamory

Goddess of Java — Sat, 20 Aug 2011 14:30:36 +0000

For the record, this letter was a bit longer. I’ve edited it for brevity, but I hope that I kept the salient points:

For almost half a year now, I’ve been involved in a polyamorous relationship with a married man. His wife and I are very different people. I’ve been trying to find some common ground between us, but we might as well be from different planets. I don’t dislike her, but it’s been obvious from our first meeting that there wasn’t anything to connect us apart from our partner. And I’m fine with that. I thought she was too – until two weeks ago, when my partner told me that his wife was upset because of the plans we’d all been making for some festivals. Because we like different things, I’d said I didn’t mind organizing my own trip there by myself, so they could just plan to go together without anyone having to compromise on which performances to see and such. Apparently, this upset her because if we were all going to the festival anyway, she wanted to go together and do things with the three of us. So I thought, ‘wow, I must have completely missed her attempts to make friends with me, I’m such an ass’ – except that further discussion revealed that no, she didn’t feel any particular connection with me either, and she hadn’t been putting any effort into trying to create one. She didn’t want ME specifically to go to the festivals with them, she just wants his other partner(s) to be people she could be friends with and who would form ‘their little group’ and I’m not someone who fit that picture in her head.

I didn’t enter into a relationship with her, I entered into a relationship with her husband; and while I realize that she ‘comes with the package’, so to say, I don’t feel obliged to do anything other than show her general friendliness, courtesy, and honesty, especially after my attempts to find common ground earlier in the relationship failed

I could use some advice on how to reopen the dialogue, or just a fresh perspective on the whole thing. I don’t want her to be miserable, and of course I don’t want my partner to be miserable, but I don’t know what I should do. I know I’m a rather headstrong, inflexible person, so maybe it’s me who’s at fault here. Am I being a complete pain in the backside and should I just adapt? I guess she could be feeling excluded, though she hasn’t phrased it like that.

It is not unusual to go into polyamory with an attitude of what an ex of mine use to refer to as a “group hug” mentality. He said it with a level of extreme frustration, and I think that frustration was pretty justified in retrospect. Part of the appeal of polyamory for some people is you get your gang to hang out with. Many poly people, and I’ll include myself, like the idea of this group that’s all mutually supportive and on each other’s side and hangs out with each other all the time and…

And that’s just dandy if it just works out that way. Trying to engineer it? Forget it. It won’t work and there will be explosions. The more you try to force it, the worse the pushback.

With that perspective, I do have some things to offer about opening a dialog:

Yes, you need to open a dialog

This is a genuine problem that needs addressing. While it is not an emergency, and we don’t need to be waking people up in the middle of the night with it, scheduling a time to get together over a cup of tea and talking is a good idea. This doesn’t have to be some Very Big Deal. You can just say, “Hey, I’m concerned about a couple of things. When you have a few minutes in the next couple of weeks, can we sit down together for a bit?”
Don’t let hubby be the go-between

You are worried about how your boyfriend’s wife is feeling. Talk with her. Don’t let the boyfriend interpret. Don’t have hubby be the manager between you two. You’re grown-ups. You can talk. It is not unusual in V-type relationships for the hinge to be expected to be the go-between. I don’t often see it turning out well. Direct communication between the parties involved is better.
Reiterate that you do feel benevolent

You stated that you feel like you owe her friendliness and courtesy. Yep, you’re right. You owe each other that. True, true, true. When opening up about this, the fact that you do feel kindly towards everyone involved and that you don’t want anyone feeling miserable is a great thing to bring up. Make sure that everyone gets that “We’re not cut out to be bestest buddies” doesn’t map in any way to “I hate your guts”. Some people get a little binary about this and need a reminder that distant kindliness is just fine.
You don’t actually know what your boyfriend’s wife is thinking.

You’re guessing about how your boyfriend’s wife feels. Put that on hold and wait to ask. It’ll avoid some miscommunication if you don’t presume to know what she’s thinking and when you get together simply ask. It might be what you’re guessing, but it could be another issue. Ask her what it is she wants and if she’s willing to explain why. If she’s feeling left out, it’s possible she has a direct idea of what she wants and why. Be willing to listen to that, because it’s entirely possible you’ll be all good with what she wants as a solution.
Take her at her word.

Presume every word your boyfriend’s partner is saying is the absolute truth and act on that. This has a two-fold benefit. If she’s telling the truth, good communication is happening. If she’s not telling the truth, she shoots herself in the foot and either opens up and starts being forthcoming, or solves the problem by causing an explosion. If you try to interpret, you’ll either get it wrong, or encourage her not to communicate clearly. That’s not helpful to anyone.
You’re allowed to say “No.”

You are not obligated to say yes to everything she wants. You’re only obligated to tell the truth and say yes to those things you’re cool with saying yes to. i.e. “Sure, we can all go to that concert together, but I want to go to the post-party alone.”

You say you’re headstrong. That’s okay. But be willing to talk. Be willing to listen and be open to ideas. Chances are very good you don’t have all the information, so getting it would be a good way to make a better decision. You’re quite right that a talk needs to happen. However, you might hear that the boyfriend’s wife doesn’t want to talk. I hope that doesn’t happen, as I can’t see that as ending well. But if she doesn’t want to talk to you, you can’t force that, either.

Good luck!

You Might Like:

Homewrecker or Confused?

Goddess of Java — Sun, 14 Aug 2011 11:31:27 +0000

I just started looking at this blog a few days ago and I love it. I also entered a poly relationship a few days ago… and I’m slightly less sure about that.

I am dating a man who is also married. His wife is strongly poly-oriented and until he met me he didn’t understand the concept. Now he and I are in the flush of new love (We were strictly friends for four months and the introduction of physical intimacy has created the kind of fireworks I’ve only ever read about. Very intense.) and I’ve never been happier. His wife and I are on very good terms and so far thing are going swimmingly. My secondary status at this point is related only to the fact that he and she share the usual responsibilities and attachments of legal marriage. I do not feel secondary in his heart.

In fact… THAT is the thing I am slightly concerned about. He’s in love with me. I’m in love with him. It might just be some serious new relationship energy but the way he talks… it’s like I’m the real love of his life and she’s a friend and partner that he respects. Am I entering a poly relationship with a man whose marriage is on the rocks but just doesn’t realize it yet? Am I setting myself up to feel like a home-wrecker? Is the poly label a band-aid over our affair?

I’m new to this whole thing and probably overreacting and over thinking – but I’d love some outside input.

If you’re trying to label yourself as the “real” love of someone’s life, I’m not sure you’re (Blind Io forgive me for going here) really approaching this as polyamorous. Sounds to me like you kinda would be pretty happy if he dumped his wife and got with you. If it’s not you and this is the way he’s talking without your expectations, you might want to sit down with your favorite cuppa and give this a good, hard think.

The whole point of polyamory is that you can be in love with more than one person. You know that, I know that. Does he know that?

I will say that if he’s going to dismiss an old partner for the new and shiny, he’ll dismiss you for the new and shiny further down the road. Watching very carefully how new partners treat old partners is an excellent way to predict behavior once the NRE wears off. Worst relationship decisions I ever made was ignoring this and making situational excuses in the throes of NRE. Learn from my stupidity.

From the couple’s perspective, “relationship broken, add more people” is never a good idea. At best, it’ll precipitate a breakup. But it can often trigger explosions as well. You don’t want to be the schrapnel.

You Might Like:

Being Informed and Dirty Little Secrets in Polyamory

Goddess of Java — Wed, 10 Aug 2011 13:27:17 +0000

I wanted to message you (as I’m sure most people who message you do) about a poly/open relationship I’m in. As for the background, I’ve been separated for about 11 months and have been seeing someone for the last two and a half. He is also divorced and on the third night that he stayed over, I told him that I was not interested in an exclusive relationship. He said he felt the same and we agreed on condoms with others. I told him I wanted to know what was going on with him and that I was potentially interested in meeting, hanging out with or even being involved with other women he dated. He said he wasn’t sure what he wanted regarding my dalliances, so we agreed to play it by ear. First time try at poly/open for both of us.

Recently, he went on a dinner date with another woman without telling me. He later texted me what happened after he went AWOL and I didn’t anticipate how insecure I would feel after finding out. I decided, though, that I wanted to be open because I wanted to know that our time spent together was because we *wanted* to be together, and not because exclusivity made each of us our only options.

But then he brought his “date” to a party that he had invited me to. He didn’t tell me she was coming and when I arrived she was clinging to him in that tell-tale way that women in the early stages of an exclusive relationship do.

I would like to say that I flipped out, but instead I bit my tongue and ignored the two of them until such time as it was no longer socially awkward to leave. And then I cried my eyes out.

I know that part of my hurt was because I got blindsided. I also felt betrayed because I was honest with him about my intentions, and I was honest with my secondary about my intentions, but because he was not honest with his date about *me,* I suddenly felt like a mistress or a dog eating the leftover scraps.

In all your entries (well, the ones I’ve read at least), I’ve never read your stance on information sharing and honesty with the “others.” Why is it that when I imagine him with other women, I see myself meeting them, laughing, chatting about our time with him, and just generally getting along and being friends, but now that I see it actually happening, the very fact that I know what’s going on and she doesn’t just boils my insides?

I updated our contract and told him that my new conditions were that he be honest with the women he sees as well. I told him I’m out if he doesn’t. Is this unreasonable? Uncommon?

Thanks for being out there!

I think that asking your partner to explain why he didn’t want to give you what you asked for in terms of disclosure specifics would be an excellent start. Note the way I phrased that: “ask your partner”. Be open to an explanation rather than make an accusation. However, if I’d outlined something that specifically and had gotten a yes to the request (I’m presuming you got on here. Did you?) I would feel pretty insecure, myself. Habits of evasiveness or concealment can come from a lot of places and many of them aren’t necessarily teh ebbil, but they’re not very trust-building. This is a bit of rules-lawyering, but if you didn’t specifically say, “I want to know about dates before they happen” then he can very legitimately point out that he did volunteer the information about the date to you.

The party incident? That was pretty insensitive, if nothing else. Asking your partner if he’d explain the choice not to tell you that his other romantic interest was going to be there would be a good way to open some communication. Again, ask. While I’m having a hard time thinking of a good reason he would have neglected to convey the information, there are people in this world who are emotionally clueless on occasion, and direct and explicit dialog about what you want can be a real help here.

I have no idea in the world why you say you would have preferred to flip out about the zinger you got at the party. I think it’s perfectly okay not to make a scene at a party and wait until a more appropriate time to display/discuss your feelings. Wait, go cry one’s eyes out, then get a bit of equilibrium and talk about what you want strikes me as a good way to handle intense emotions. By the way, calmly stating, “I felt hurt” is expressing the emotion, too, as well as giving some information. We’re presuming the man cares whether or not you’re hurt so saying how you feel is a good idea. It’s not necessarily a command to him to make it all better, mind, but information is good.

I also think that not wanting to be a dirty little secret is a pretty common desire among poly people. It is not unreasonable or uncommon for this to be a pretty hard boundary with many polys. I would say that among the poly people I know, it’s more common than not. That’s the way I like to do things, myself. If you think about it, not telling someone something that they would end the relationship if they knew means that you’re coercing the person to have a relationship with you. I’m into freely-chosen relationships, myself.

I hope this works out for you.

Addendum: Now that I’ve made this blanket statement about whether or not it’s common to agree to be someone’s secret, I gotta ask you that have been poly awhile, would you be someone’s secret? Never. Sometimes? Under what conditions?

You Might Like:

Polyamory, STDs and Partner Communication

Goddess of Java — Wed, 27 Jul 2011 17:38:23 +0000

Dear Goddess of Java,

I was recently tested for all STDs and found, to my delight, that I have no STDs. I felt relief and actually thought about calling someone to tell them… but then I thought, whom should I call? I called my primary partner, of course, because it was mostly for him that I was tested. But what about my casual sex partners from the past few months? Is telling someone that you have no STDs similar to telling them that you do have STDs?

What does it mean that I am STD-free? I already practice safer sex. Is this a condition that I should work harder to retain? If I meet a prospective partner who does the responsible thing and discloses possible exposure or a positive status, am I required due to my previous relationships to take greater steps to preserve my STD-free state if I want to have sex with previous partners? If I do have sex with the STD-positive partner, should I inform my other partners before or after? Do they get a say in whether or not I have sex, or what safer-sex practices I get to use? I’m just not sure what the most responsible and respectful thing to do is in this situation.

First off, congrats on the clean bill of health. That’s good. I hope you’re using good safer sex practices or that you’ll continue to do so.

As far as whom to tell? If you want to announce the good news you can but I wouldn’t think it necessary unless you’re asked. Of course one must contact anyone who has been exposed if you test positive for an STD and have them get tested, even if no-one is asking you. That’s information that a responsible person volunteers at the first available opportunity. I expect you knew that.

I don’t know what safer sex measures you’re taking, so it’s hard to make a specific recommendation. I’ve recommended Polyamory, STDs and Safer Sex before and I’ll do it again. It outlines some excellent guidelines and gives some great information that’s neither scare tactics nor foolish.

Now, if you have a prospective who has been exposed to an STD (and good that honest disclosure is going on, by the way), you have lots and lots of options. The first and the most important option? Ask your other partners what they would like to have happen in terms of risk management. It’s not that you’re required to do so by the Official Polyamory Handbook or anything, but you don’t want to be a jerk. Do I personally listen to partners’ input on what they’re comfortable with in terms of safer sex practices? My word yes. I love my partners. I want them to feel comfortable. I care about their health!¹ While I won’t tolerate being dictated to, my partner selection is such that I’m involved with people whose judgment I consider good, which means that yeah, I’m going to consider input carefully.

I strongly encourage you to discuss risk tolerance with your partners. Asking partners for their input, how they feel and what they want before making your decision is the most loving and respectful thing you can do. What random strangers with a rep for being hyper-practical think about risk assessment might be okay in terms of a reality check, but it’s your partners who are (or should be selected carefully enough that they can be) your trusted advisors. Get everyone to do some research and then get together and talk about it.

As a side note? I dislike the OHHH, Leprosy-style reaction a positive on an STD test. I think it discourages frank discussion and intelligent risk management. People don’t like to reveal information if they’re going to be shamed for it, so I think the shaming nonsense is a terrible idea. Have a sense of proportion about it!

______

¹ You know, polyamory. Love? It’s a factor, after all.

You Might Like:

I Feel Like My Life is Crashing

Goddess of Java — Thu, 21 Jul 2011 11:00:51 +0000

I am a lesbian. I am married and in a non-romantic relationship with my wife as we raise our kids. We are friends, that is all. I started dating another woman and could not give her enough because of my obligations. She was sad all the time. I agreed to try this poly thing so she could have another person in her life to make her happy. I know I am married but I am a romantic and sexual monogamist. I have spent the last few months crying every time my lover is with the other woman. My partner says she cannot break up with the other woman although she would like to give us another try being 100 % monogamous. Is it right for her to leave the other woman for me or will she resent me for it? I want her back but I can’t suffer anymore. Do you think that there is a way for her to leave the other woman and feel good about herself ethically? Please help me, I feel like my life is crashing.

First off, OUCH. I’m sorry you’re hurting.

However when we talk about ethics, I’m wondering how it is that you’re okay wanting monogamy from someone when you yourself are not really offering it. I understand that you’re saying you have a marriage of convenience, but it’s still a marriage – shared home, shared lives, what have you. You’re certainly co-parenting. Those obligations were definitely interfering with what your girlfriend wanted in a partner.

As far as whether or not it is “right” for your girlfriend to leave her partner and only be with you? Only she can say. Only she can say whether or not she’ll resent that in the long term.

I hope you’ll forgive me for saying so, but it seems you’re a bit focused on getting other people to behave in ways you’d like for your comfort. Are you really okay with that? You asked about fixing your girlfriend, but what about fixing you? I wince as I say that, because you are expressing a lot of pain in this letter and adding to it seems a bit heartless.

Here’s the reality: Your girlfriend is going to have to settle in her own mind what she’s okay with or not and what feels ethical to her or not. You have zero control over that one.

I think the pain you’re in is also because you might be having a hard time settling your priorities to yourself. You’ve got the non-romantic marriage and kids, but it sounds to me like what you want is romantic monogamy. There’s nothing wrong with wanting that. It’s just that everything has its price.

What do you want most, deep down and for real? After you settle that for yourself, your way will be clearer. I hope that you do find your way, cause feeling in such a quandary can be quite painful.

You Might Like: